SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

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SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  VegetaSSJ3 on Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:25 am

Salagir think that in Dragon Ball, SSJ2 is much more than just a X2.

By the way I would add, that it is impossible that SSJ2 is X100 (X50 and X2) because there is a huuuuuuge difference between the SSJ Goku versus Frieza and SSJ full power Goku versus Cell.

Actually SSJ GOKU vs Frieza is weaker than C18. C18 is weaker than C16. C16 is weaker than USSJ Vegeta. USSJ Vegeta is weaker than SSJ GOKU vs Cell.

And it is not just because Base Goku is stronger, it is also because the SSJ is at full power. So, what is SSJ at full power? X100 ?

And furthermore, was it stated in the manga that SSJ2 is X2 or SSJ2 is X4? Or it is just a fan estimation?
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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Leon on Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:01 pm

I've ran the numbers a few times. While I can come up with a growth scheme that has mastered SSj have a 50x like normal SSj with the "normal" DBZ growth rate, it's impossible with both limited growth and the higher multiples.

So yeah. MSSj might be like, 100-200x. USSj might be 250-300x, but with draw backs, and USSj2 might be 300-400x...but worthless.

Salagir thinks SSj2 is at least 1000x SSj. He doesn't like to use numbers, so 10x is his go to multiple to show "Far above and beyond anyone in the old stage."

Due to the limited growth rates then, it basically boils down to: (With the exception of Fusions...and bra, by the looks of things)

SSj 50x.
SSj2 beats any SSj
SSj3 beats any SSj2.
Mystic Gohan > SSj3.

Now some rough guesses:

Vegeto base >= normal SSj3. SSj3 Goku might be a little stronger, but Vegeto has a lot more fighting experience and absolutely no power drain as he's base.
Gohan > Vegeto base. As I've explained on the DBM comments, with Vegeto being 10x stronger than Buuhan in SSj, that has him coming up about = to SSj3 Goku in base, meaning Gohan > base Vegeto.
Bra SSj >=< Gohan
Bra SSj2 >=< SSj Vegeto (raw power, Vegeto still wins the fight with ease)

So.

Tiers really work better with DBM than power levels. Consider SSj2 - 3 10x the previous, with other tiers from other characters somewhere between.

SSj Tier = A lot of people. The humans on the high end of it, Frieza's family on the low end. Future androids somewhere in the middle, bojacks crew, Bojack himself on the high end. Dabura. Kakaroto / Prince Vegeta, though they might be higher.
SSj2 Tier = Goku/Vegeta/Base Bra, probably Cell.
SSj3 Tier = Goku, probably Vegeta's new thing, Base Vegeto, maybe Cell, Fat Buu
Gohan Tier = Gohan, Maybe Cell, Bra SSj
Vegeto SSj Tier = Vegeto SSj, Bra SSj2, maybe Zen Buu
Vegeto SSj2 Tier = Vegeto SSj2, maybe Zen buu, SSj3 bra, though it's doubtful she'll have SSj3 in DBM.
Vegeto SSj3 Tier = He stands alone.
Brolly = Fluctuates between Gohan and Vegeto SSj tier to as high as between Vegeto SSj2 to SSj3 tier. Unless he's released, somewhere between them.
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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Hyp3rB14d3 on Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:15 pm

Salagir thinks SSJ2 is a thousand times stronger than SSJ? I think you may have added some zeroes there, Leon.

VegetaSSJ3, keep in mind that Goku trained for 10 months in a high gravity, low oxygen environment (and may have received a zenkai from nearly dying due to the heart virus). What's more, we never saw him fight any of the cyborgs at full power, only while he was dying from a heart virus. Also keep in mind that SSJ is a x50 multiplier. So if, for example, Goku increased his base from 4 million to 6 million, that would make his SSJ pl go from 200 million to 300 million. Put it all together, and MSSJ might very well be the same multiplier as SSJ, just without putting any strain on one's body or mind.
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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Leon on Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:32 pm

Salagir's rough explanation is 2/3 are 10x the previous.

So:

SSj; 50x base
SSj2: 500x base
SSj3: 5000x base
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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Stick on Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:59 am

I would call it fan estimation, or "manipulation," grossly overstated.
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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Ganjalow on Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:43 pm

Well, let's take the manga's informations about it.

Vegeta states Cell "2 or 3 times stronger than Goku".

Goku is near from Gohan level ( SSJ ) ~.

Gohan SSJ2 rapes Cell 100%. And everybody is shitting in his pants when Cell goes 100%.

So :

-Cell is at least 3 times stronger than Gohan when he's at 100%.
-Gohan, to rape Cell, must have something like x10.

So Salagir's thinking are right Smile

About the SSJ3, we don't know, I think it's about x5-x10.

For the MSSJ, or SSJ Full Power : Goku says "The simple Super Saiyen level is way better [Than USSJ]".

This doesn't change the transformation. But Goku's powerlevel became way bigger, so he's better than Vegeta.

I think that's because SSJ Full Power drains almost no energy. So Goku can trains all the day with Gohan and become way stronger.

SSJ1=x50(DBM Canon).

SSJ2= x500 ( Dragon Ball logic )

SSJ3= ? Maybe x2, x3, x5 ? We don't know.

And, no, a SSJ1 can beat a SSJ2. If Baddack became SSJ2, Goku would have raped him in SSJ1 states.

Goku's progression between Freeza and Cell, even if he's SSJ is huge. More than a x10.

If Goku base < Freeza ( DBM Canon ), that's because Goku doesn't use Kaioken Smile

But a GOku with Kaioken would rape him.

Yay, i resolved it ! Laughing

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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Buster on Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:38 pm


I think that MSSJ would have to be >> than USSJ.

Example: USSJ Vegeta gives Cell a direct kick to the neck with no effect. He fights Cell to no effect, and he is only able to damage him with his suped-up Final Flash. However, MSSJ Goku is able to deal damage to Cell in an actual fight.

Numbers time

For simplicity, all Base Saiyans ~ 2
Vegeta SSJ = 100 (50x mult. is a pretty good estimate for unmastered SSJ)
C18 = 130
C17= 140 (he says he's stronger, but he's also a cocky douche so who knows)
Cell = 180
Imperfect Cell = 320

After Vegeta comes out of the ROSAT, Goku says something like "You would have to triple your power..." and Vegeta laughs. This actually makes some sense, but I'd say it's more along quadrupling considering how Vegeta pwned Cell.

USSJ Vegeta = 400
P. Cell suppressed = 450
USSJ2 Trunks = 480 - 500ish (hard to say given that he couldn't touch Cell)
MSSJ Goku = 450
MSSJ Gohan = 460
P. Cell full = 480
SSJ2 Gohan = 1000
SP Cell = 960

So, my opinion is that USSJ ~ 200x, USSJ2 ~ 250x, MSSJ ~ 225x, SSJ2 ~ 500x

I dunno. Leon, you're good with numbers.
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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Pikuhan vs Piccolo on Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:25 am

not to derail the thread but a Question while waiting on the mathematical talents of Leon

Lets say...
Bardok ~ 10,000
K.Vegeta ~ 11,000
Potara Fusion ~ AxB [base]

then...
K.Bargeta ~ 110,000,000 [base]

and then...
Ozaru = Base x10
SSJ1 = Base x50
Golden Ozaru = Base x500

all while...
Freeza = 120,000,000
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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Ganjalow on Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:55 pm

Potala are not PowerlevelxPowerlevel.

Let's give an exemple.

Goku is 100 and Vegeta is 80. And Krilin, who doesn't fuse, is 10. Vegetto would be 8000. He pownz Krilin, he's 800 times stronger than him.
Now let's use different units.

Goku is 10 and Vegeta is 8. Krilin is 1. Vegetto would be 80. Oh, now he's only 8 times stronger than him Smile

And if we keep on, Goku is 0,1 and Vegeta is 0,08. Krilin is 0,01. Vegetto is 0,008. Krilin kicks his ass.

So, Potara fusion make weaker ?

GokuxVegeta =/= Vegetto.

Potara fusion doesn't work with X.

The better would be ( goku + Vegeta ) x K ( with K about, I don't know, 50, 100, 200 ).

And MSSJ isn't stronger than SSJ. Goku states that "the normal form of SSJ is better [than USSJ1 and 2]"

The normal SSJ. Not another SSJ he made.

If Goku pownz Vegeta, that's because his base became way stronger.

Plus, the USSJ that Vegeta uses must make speed down ( muscles are bigger, the same as USSJ that Trunks use, but a little bit less ). And MSSJ allows to not spend Ki.

So MSSJ >> USSJ because speed better, no spending Ki, even if USSJ has a better strength multiplier.

Let's say Goku base is 5. Vegeta base is 2.

Goku MSSJ = 5x50 = 250 Strength and speed + no spending Ki.

Vegeta USSJ = 2x70 strength + 2x40 speed = 140 strength and 80 speed + spending Ki.

So Goku >> Vegeta.

So MSSJ >> USSJ.

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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Hyp3rB14d3 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:07 pm

Actually, the power level x power level thing only doesn't work because you decided to leave out the units.

Lets say Person A has a power level of 100s, and Person B has a power level of 105s. For the sake of simplicity, s = 1. Thus, a fusion of Person A and Person B has a power level of 10500s^2, or 10500. Now let's do the math with a different unit. The unit u = 10s. So Person A now has a power level of 10u, and Person B has a power level of 10.5u. Their fusion has a power of 105u^2, or 10500. The math works out as long as you remember to square the unit.
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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Ganjalow on Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:47 pm

Well, anyway, I wanted to show that it wasn't this simple. And that Vegetto would be millions of times stronger than Goku ... Dude, that's TOO MUCH. (Goku + Vegeta ) x K is way better.

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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Buster on Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:36 pm

I don't think you can use square units... That's like saying, "OK, my fridge runs at 100W, so if I fuse it, it runs at 10000 W^2." W^2 is meaningless. If we have to get mathematical (which we do. because... we're fans), there has to be some constant in the fusion power equation that's 1/u. Could be possibly normalized to 1, but still.
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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Hyp3rB14d3 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:07 pm

You would have to solve for W, yes. That said, I was just showing that the max for X*Y does work. I agree that (X+Y)*C, where X=Person 1, Y=Person 2, and C=a constant, is simpler.
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Re: SSJ X50 SSJ2 X2 SSJ3 X4 ?

Post  Buster on Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:11 pm

Whoops. My bad.

Brain is fried after classes...
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