Vegetas new Form?

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Vegetas new Form?

Post  Syrias on Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:05 pm

its implied that vegeta has an alternative to ssj3, more akin to the "ultimate/mystic" power up of gohan.

this thread is meant to find the possible ways vegeta could choose to achieve a new form.

1)
my first guess is training his base. training the base so much that it equals the ssj state in power.

like this:

base vegeta prior to his "base training": 1
ssj vegeta: 50

base vegeta after his "base training": 50
ssj vegeta: 2500

while this would not exactly be the same as gohans power up, it would follow a similar principle:

"unlock as much power in your base form as possible. try to reach and even overcome your limitations"

2)

vegeta swallows his pride and visits guru, asking the namek to free the latent powers of the prince.

this could work similar to the "train your base" idea.

3)

vegeta actually manages to get the kaioshins to give him the "mystic treatment". i find this to be the least likely possibility.


ideas that do not spin from the mystic form:

1) vegeta uncovers how the kaioken works. he finds that he can use it while ssj or even ssj2. heavy training with the technique lets him use it with minimal strain on the body(strain increasing with higher multiplicators of kaioken).

(base*ssjform)*kaioken(*x)=ultimate vegeta.

after all, the kaioken is "just" a TECHNIQUE while the ssj is a TRANSFORMATION that is in the genes of the saiyans. i dont see how they couldnt use both if they liked.


do you have any other ideas? id like to read them
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Hyp3rB14d3 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:50 pm

SSJ seems to be a very flexible transformation. And by that, I mean that it can be altered by the user to suit their needs. During the Cell Saga, Goku and Gohan were able to almost completely eliminate the strain on one's body caused by the SSJ transformation, while Vegeta and Trunks were able to alter their SSJ transformations to output more power at the costs of slow ki charging and a lack of speed. SSJ2 and SSJ3 seem to be further variations on the SSJ transformation. Theoretically, this same principle could be used on SSJ2.

The SSJ3 transformation's greatest weakness is the energy drain and resulting lack of stamina, while its greatest strength is its high amount of power. As such, a form with enough stamina to last until the energy drain finished it would be the ideal choice to combat it. Unfortunately, Vegeta's SSJ2 form alone lacks the speed and defensive capability to last against Goku's SSJ3 form until it runs out. As such, either a form with high stamina and much greater defense or a form with the ability to accelerate the SSJ3's energy drain would be needed.

On a related note, I personally think that SSJ3 is essentially USSJ for SSJ2, except that instead of a speed loss, there's an energy drain.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Docter KillJoy on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:49 pm

well guru is dead and we don't know if mori (i thought that was his name, could be wrong) who is the new elder. can do the same. to unlock a part of some one's potential.

elder kai, mabey he bribed him by letting him see bulma's breasts like he wanted.

it seems more likey that he trained very hard. and perhaps trained with someone, instead of always alone
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Syrias on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:58 pm

okay, so what did he train? how did he train?

its implied he wanted to get the same as gohan. full use of power without transforming. how did he achieve it? did he even achieve it?

that are the topics i wanna discuss here.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Docter KillJoy on Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:01 pm

mabey he trained against gotenks.
it's hard to say, he obviously did not train with goku or gohan.

piccolo, tien, yamcha and krillin are too weak.

trunks and goten alone, won't provide a challenge. so that would leave gotenks.

------
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Hyp3rB14d3 on Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:28 pm

Syrias wrote:its implied he wanted to get the same as gohan. full use of power without transforming.
No, it's outright stated that he thinks SSJ3 is flawed, and is looking for a better option. He just used Gohan as an example. I doubt that he's looking to eliminate the transformation as much as he's trying to find a transformation that is equal to SSJ3 without the energy loss.

I was going to make a comment about doubting that he would have transformed to withstand the blast during the Broly vs Vegetto fight if he could access all his power without transforming, but it seems that was the other Vegeta. We aren't shown U18 Vegeta until after everyone else had changed back.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Leon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:57 pm

Vegeta trained alone, both in a super ultra training room under the earth, and in the room of spirit and time (which was modified to let people use it an unlimited amount if it wasn't set to time mode. Basically, just a separate dimension to train in and not blow up the world doing it.)
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Syrias on Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:26 pm

thats from the novelization, hm?
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Leon on Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:28 pm

yeah. He trains in the room because of how intense it is.

He trains in the Time Chamber to go all out where no one can sense him.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Mrperson0 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:44 am

Now that SSJ3 Vegeta is actually in a video game, Salagir and Gogeta Jr. could just use that as the SSJ3 for Vegeta instead, lol.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Leon on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:06 pm

except Vegeta has stated he hates SSj3 with a dire passion in DBM cannon.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Mrperson0 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:25 pm

In the comic or fanfic that can easily be edited? And I doubt he would hate it if he learned to use it effectively like Goku. :\
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Syrias on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:41 pm

please do not discuss vegeta going ssj3 here. DBM has him saying he got something better. so he is not ssj3 in DBM.

from what you said, leon, id say he does what i mentioned about the base form.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Mrperson0 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:54 pm

Alright, fine...

I'd have to say no to any of the options you listed, Syrias (with the second one being nullified anyway). Both Goku and Vegeta have been training for a very long time.

In the end, they would both either have the "Base = SSJ from Buu saga" somehow, or just become stronger. I mean, Goku would train by himself, train with Goten (lol?), very likely Gotenks, and then Uub. All Vegeta has is himself, Trunks (lol?), and very likely Gotenks. So in the end, the first option would be moot, as Goku has the same amount of/more training than Vegeta.

As for the second option, yeah, Guru is dead, and it has never been shown that Moori (sp?) has the same "part potential" unlocking ability.

And Vegeta asking Goku for an Instant Transmission to the Elder Kai planet for the full power unlock? Dunno, unless Vegeta really is ok with Goku. But that would mean they would train with each other all the time, and I don't really see that happening.

In the end, the Kaioken with Super Saiyan may be possible, but once again, do we really expect Vegeta going to Goku or King Kai for help?
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Buster on Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:01 pm

Vegeta: "Scroow u guyz imma super saiyan 4!!!!!!!!11!!!1"

The End.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Docter KillJoy on Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:17 pm

perhaps he combined ascended saiyan with ssj2
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Ussj Future Trunks on Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:32 am

ultra super saiyan 2? hmm. i was thinking since ssj3 is a "forced form" then vegeta found something better? like how ussj was replaced by mssj and ssj2.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Leon on Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:46 am

I don't think MSSj 2 would have enough power to keep up with 3, even without a drain.

MSSj3, Goku most likely has, if it exists. Goku countered Vegeta by saying "Yeah. But the best way to surpass SSj3 is to master it."

Vegeta's reply was something along the lines of "No. That's stupid."
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Rage on Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:17 am

What if Vegeta found a way to increase his multiplier? instead of (this is an example) 10x when going SSJ it's 30x when he becomes SSJ.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Docter KillJoy on Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:32 pm

could be an option....but is it possible?

perhaps he combined oozaru with super saiyan (without it looking like a golden ape or ssj4)
but he lacks a tail, so thats out.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Pikuhan vs Piccolo on Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:14 pm

While I would not want Vegeta to copy SSJ3, and salagir doesn't seem to want copy any concepts that are GT specific, there is really three schools of thinking for Vegeta's 3rd stage transformation.

1. based on something previously in DBZ that Vegeta has seen or done.

2. truly originates from the realm of fanaticism.

3. some amalgamation of the two above.

---
I figure Vegeta will have MSSJ2 seeing how he tacks what training methods he knows goku uses and cranks it up a notch [see 300G training] but he would be silly to think Goku's SSJ3 couldn't beat it. Building his base beyond Goku's will only get him so fare as well; He can't really rely on developing a base PL over 4x Goku's in order to win... not when Goku can build hid base PL with Uub.

I like the idea of mastering the ascended and ultra grades in tandem with SSJ2, be that would still pale to the power obtained in SSJ3. I think U13 Vegeta should have something like this though while U13 Kakarotto simply has MSSJ2 and hides any extra power from his prince [see F.trunks training with U18 Vegeta]. maybe U13 Vegeta can focus on limiting the speed loss of USSJ2 along with the time to change between the different grades of SSJ2. Once USSJ2 is mastered in this way, it would allow for high speed close combat as ASSJ2, and even more devastating blasts in USSJ2, not to mention untold stamina and conservation of KI as a MSSJ2.

The only thing i could see, as mentioned a post above, is using the GT SSJ4 [or some variant] as Vegeta's take on SSJ3. we never seen Vegeta channel an animial spirit into his attacks before, let alone his transformations. Filler anime Goku has for SSJ3, reggae Goku has for dragon fist and penatrate, and Yamcha was the 1st to with wolf fang fist! Vegeta says without a tail a sayajin wont transform into the great ape [ozaru] however if he a sayajin can force a super transformation [Ascended and Utra are just that; maybe even SSJ3] and Vegeta has that power ball [convers ki into bruitz waves] i think he could force part of the Ape transformation.

Lets say Vegeta powers up to his limit in SSJ2 with the Ult grade buff, then gathers as much KI around him as he can hold [via suicide style or Final Flash start up], next he could convert all that KI into Bruitz waves [taking a significant drop in PL], and finally absorb said Bruits waves [like Goku did the spirit bomb vs SA13]. He could look like a slightly taller USSJ build with, MSSJ aura, SSJ2 sparks, his GT SSJ4 face and hair, but the hair could be colored platinum blond or a luminescently lunar white. no need for tail or fur, but i like the enlarged canines too.

fan math time....

SSJ3= base x 400
SSJ1 Ape= base x 500

Lets say the Bruitz Power Up drops Vegeta's base about 20~25% and forcefully channels the spirit [and KI] of his would be golden ape form into his MUSSJ2 body.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Rage on Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:41 pm

Or Vegeta could use that Kaioken look a like thing, the one he mentioned when he fought Goku. *shrugs*
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  LunchPolice on Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:41 pm

I don't think he'd use anything like Kaioken. I'm pretty sure the whole point of his new transformation
is to get stronger without strain.
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Docter KillJoy on Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:11 am

no he doesn't have kaioken. but in the saiyan saga he mentioned to goku. he knows a similar technique, but never showed it Razz

he probaly bribed elder kai with allowing him to see or touch bulma's boobs or gave him nudie pics, so elder kai unlocked his potential.

its rather funny though that in the novel as leon mentioned. vegeta complains transformations are not needed or useless. while in dbz he was always the one going on and on about discovering new transformations pirat
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Re: Vegetas new Form?

Post  Buster on Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:21 pm

Look, I'm pretty sure if Vegeta's gonna come up with a new form, he's not going to ask for help from anyone. No kaioken from Goku, and definitely no upgrade from Old Kai (Vegeta was mad enough when Goku promised him Bulma...).

Someone mentioned it at somepoint that he's been doing intense training in either the ROSAT or in a super gravity chamber. This sounds very Vegettoish from U16, and Vegetto most likely got the idea from the Vegeta half of him.

Drawbacks of SSJ3:
Huge power consumption.
Lengthy powerups.
Long hair? Even Gohan told Videl that her long hair could get in the way during a fight. All that hair has got to be a hindrance more than anything.

Solutions:
Master SSJ3 just like Goku and Gohan mastered the SSJ1 transformation just like back in the Cell days.
- Well, Vegeta seems to think that this is the wrong thing to do. More or less, SSJ3 is such an energy burner that mastering it could prove to be impossible.

Train the base. Just by increasing the base powerlevel from 1 to 1.25 makes a huge difference once you use the SSJ multipliers.
- One of the most likely scenarios. However, in order to really advance your power in huge scales, SSJ's must be mastered and increased. It seems to show in the series that training your base is a much slower progression than trying to advance ssj powers.

Master SSJ2 and see what happens when you try and progress it.
- In the Buu era, SSJ2 was rarely used up to that point, and was a fairly new achievement for Goku and Vegeta, and Gohan never used it. Goku jumped right into SSJ3 for its power, but it stands to reason that an SSJ2 could be mastered like SSJ1 and control its potential. SSJ2 would be a much easier form to train in, due to its low power drain (unlike ASSJ, USSJ, and SSJ3).

The problem is, SSJ3 seems to be the USSJ form of SSJ2 except without the speed loss. Instead of bulking your muscles though, it all goes right to your hair. It all boils down to the flaws that Trunks had: an extreme uncontrolled powerup that results in some impressive results, but has some serious disadvantages.

Seriously, Goku was barely able to accomplish anything with SSJ3. Yes, he could've killed fat Buu, but he was also dead at the time and didn't have as high energy restrictions. He could've killed kid Buu, but stupid decided to draw it out for Vegeta and wasted all of its energy. SSJ3 is useful if you can beat your opponent in 5 minutes, otherwise the power loss is too great.
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